"BROKEN." What does it mean?

[gandalf550]

I know I'm fairly new to the boards and all, but I pretty much support Keith's assessment of "broken" cards. And as for Grimus being broken, I've played the guy and had my butt kicked too many times to ever call the character broken. Just my opinion.

[frank]

It truly depends on what cards you have available and who you're facing. Fighter decks kick the crap out of wizard decks a fair bit of the time. Its just the way the game works. And you can draw bad, even with a mulligan and never really get back up. A recent play-off between two of my decks showed that if I draw the right cards for both sides anything can happen. I'm sure ethe right cards 'break' grimus as much as the next ones. Maybe you jsut don't have the right cards.

This may actually all be meaningless, but meh.

[WildfireCEO]

I know I am beating a dead horse but I will be judging yu-gi-oh this week end and let me tell you last time I judged they where running the same deck I mean like there were 200 copies of the same deck. So I am ok with a couple repetitions but I hope that we never look at one deck and thats the deck. There are several staples in this game. I won't name them all but probablly about 12 so as long as it's not 50 we should be ok.

[Deleted]

I think Kevmo pretty much covered just about everything I always wanted to say but couldn't find the words for. God bless him.

I feel very excited and honored that we have very good people here that will pool their savvy to improve the game. That goes for all the rest of you as well. Great job.

[darklord]

fperkins said:

I know I am beating a dead horse but I will be judging yu-gi-oh this week end and let me tell you last time I judged they where running the same deck I mean like there were 200 copies of the same deck.

And that's the reason our company's definition of "broken" is very different from Keith's. In that tournament, it probably wasn't a single card that was threatening the game, but game diversity was very much threatened. A lack of game diversity can kill tournament play.

[darklord]

kevmo said:

I think the bulk of your confusion with ME has to do with your comparison to other games.

Nope, it has to do with a lack of clear rules for a couple of sections which are vague. I made comparisons to other games (like Magic) because we needed SOME kind of rules to resolve the game and the ME rulebook didn't have what was needed.

That said, I haven't said that ME is broken or unplayable. In fact, I asked Q to do an analysis of the decks of winners to see what level of redundant use of cards your game sees in tournaments. I have no clue about that.

As for defining broken... you can define it any way you want. But Keith's definitions completely ignore what another user just posted -- 200 copies of the same deck with no one card being the absolute game breaker. That kills your game as surely as one or two dominant cards. You pretty much have to be aware that that is always a threat to EVERY CCG. If you aren't, stagnation may creep up on you.

I actually like the game. I bought two more Advanced Play decks at GENCON and talked my friend John into buying into the game as well.

The fourth place player at GENCON said this:

First off Slavedriver and Vorex need to be banned. So often over the weekend my opponent or myself would play one and win the game fairly quickly if it wasn't killed. Everyone in the top 8 had them in their decks, and they are obviously the most powerful cards in the format. Another big problem is the viability of other characters in tournament play besides the Lady who draws two cards. Seven of the eight decks had her as their character of choice and I would bet that 20-30 cards were the same in all 7 of those decks. When the decks that are winning are so similar, you have a problem with the health of the environment.

Again, this backs up my definition of what is broken -- environmental stagnation. If that happens because of a small number of cards then it's fixed with more cards. This person seems to be commenting on the relative need to have access to a series of cards in order to play -- probably a sign of environmental problem that occur not from one card, but from many acting in unison.

Q, did you ever get a chance to compare the winners' decks for contents?

[WildfireCEO]

I think that will be done but it could take awhile.

[spiller]

Deck lists of the top 8 are scheduled to be posted within the week. Once they are posted it will not be left up to a single person to analyze which cards were most prevalent since it will be readily available by all. Keith has already banned one card he felt overly dominated the current environment. I think it would prudent to limit comments until the decklists are posted.

[WildfireCEO]

I think it would be beneficial if all the lists where made available.

[marcus]

A negative play expierence.

That is what in essence what a ccg should look to avoid for its players. And the correct deffinition of what brokeness is, was captured correctly by Kieth. But their was something to what darklord had to say in diversity, also in brokeness being used as a slang. Diversity keeps things fun and makes your mind work to try new things in your mind and then build the deck and try them out. Charecters can always be put back into the mix by introducing creatures, items, or structures that are charecter specific or even the introduction of classes. But normal cards that can be used by all is much harder to stop. And when decks are solely made to copy or stop this certain deck, even though this deck may not be broken it can lead to a negative play experience.

[Keith Katsikas]

Thank you for your feedback marcus. It was very informative and helpful.

[Deleted]

Go Marcus. You said everything I ever wanted to say better than I could say it.

To my knowledge erratas have been made lately that IMO were made specifically to "unbreak" things and help with deck diversity. Unless I am mistaken, Vorex and Goblin Archers have both been errata-ed, and I think that goes a long way. I am sure Keith will consider more moves to really level the playing field.

Either way, thank you, and welcome to the forums!

[mtheory]

When deciding the "brokenness" of cards, the inevitable rock-paper-scissors game that comes with all card games must be taken into account.

Let me explain:

There will always been three main archetypes of decks in a card game, beatdown, control, and combo, along with those decks that are a mix of two or three.
Beatdown will usually destroy control decks, while being fairly weak against combo decks.
Control almost always halts combo decks, but is prone to the quickness of a beatdown.
Combo is the slightly more interesting type, because there are slow combo decks and there are fast combo decks. Slow combo decks are more rare because combos needs to go off as quickly as possible. Combo decks, in general, can win against beatdown decks (usually with very little life to spare,) while losing horribly to control decks.

Now, this is in no way comprehensive. But I have been playing card games for awhile, and all of them have gone by these general rules.

In order to determine the brokenness of a card, the first thing to take into account is whether or not the card breaks the flow of the aforementioned rock-paper-scissors play. An example of this would be a small beatdown creature that has the ability to mess with combo decks, such as one that can stop certain cards from being played. I think all those who play Magic often remember how crazy Meddling Mage got. Another example is a combo card that is too difficult to stop, a la possibly too hard to counter or one that comes far too quickly for any control player to deal with.

This game is still fairly new, and I think the mechanics, along with the intriguing card art, can make this a fairly common game among players these days. But in that sense, brokenness is the FIRST thing that needs to be fixed in order to make this game successful.

On another note, it might be beneficial to discuss how the brokenness of cards is also affected by the synergy they have with other cards.

If anyone cares enough, I could make a more extended post of my theories on this topic.

[Nosferatu]

I agree with that. I too have seen that triangle of decks, as have most people who have played CCG's. I have been concerned for a while that it is reletively hard to create a combo deck in this game, and thusly, Aggro wins. That was when Spirit Song first made it's appearance, and was quickly restricted. Then came Trade Agreement/Glye for a combo varient of aggro, also restricited. I have not seen any tournament quality combo decks since then, but I could be wrong. With that in mind, I don't know much that will stop the "flying sutraps" deck at this point. Spirit Song would have done it, but it's not strong enough with only one in the deck. I'd be interested to see how major tournaments play out this year.

[JChadbourne]

this topic is realy of no interest to me but I will chime in since it is the thread of the week...

Broken... hmmm, It seams when ME heres a card is broken they restrict and or erratta it as soon as hey can. One card that Nos forgot to mention was vorax. Yeah he was good and versital thats what this game needs. Maybe make him a rare but give him back his ability. It makes the game and it also gives combo decks a chance to do something. I personal like the idea of restricting cards not errattaing them to death.

I will agree with Nos and his 2 examples, though i personal have never played with trade agreements. I know it was in 90% of the decks about a year ago. The spirit song deck is what got me into this game. It was a combo/aggro deck that could handle 85% of the field at any given time. But again, they soon put the nix to that.

Broken cards at this time in this game are flying, invisable and cannot be blocked cards. They get around most decks at this time. As for Flying Trapps, yup, I have him picked to win alot of tourneys.

Also any card that gives another card bonuses just for being in play is good as well. Synergy is key. You dont just through a bunch of strong powered creatures in a deck and call it aggro, You need this items and tricks in there as well.

I would not call it broken but cards that can be used for multi purposes are also good. Someone made mention of magic, thing if you had a flametongue Kave that you could keep bouncing. Or it dealt damage and you gained a creature. I think this game needs to have creatures that have good abilities.

Some cards should be better then others, just like in any game, but right now only 50% of the cards that have been produced are being played. Thats a huge waste of cards, time and effort to make them. It seams as though most cards that have been changed in someway dont see much play now.

Also the goblin archers, hmm, that lasted only half a season before getting nixed. It also most seams that we should not mention specific cards and maybe they will be around for longer period of times.

agian this thread does not do much for me so I am sorry if the points I made are not as good as my normal discussions...