Cards that adversely affect gameplay

[rpgdirector]

This is a card we're having problems with in Kansas because it adversely affects gameplay.

Banishment: This card singlehandedly shuts down creature theme decks. Because of this card, every deck MUST run a mixture of creatures and/or must include some form of effect removal. Wizard Battle and Forget it are the only ways I've found to stop this so far. Unfortunately, they require magic. Many characters don't have magic abilities, they require creatures and/or items just to pull this stuff off. Elder Gerdge, Glye Rivendale, Lady Phe Ronde, Lady McDonnan, Sir Donree Daggamier, Thandore, Kershawndie, Earth Dragon, Flink the Swift...only 6 characters start with magic and only Lord Zycon starts with abilities in all four types of magic. All four types of magic are required to play BOTH types of effect removal.
I realize that Banishment is an ultra rare, but it's cost to play is cheap enough that I've had it dropped against me on turn two multiple times. It killed off my dwarf deck easily, stopped my angels because they don't have the magical abilities to pull off a Forget It card. Many of the super powerful cards are ultra rare effects. There needs to be some form of effect removal useable by any character, otherwise there's no reason to play theme decks and everyone will use Lord Zycon. This hurts the game by not allowing for variety within deck archetypes.

[synergy]

this card is good but i got it out 4 times out of 7 games. it didnt win me a single game ( i did win all 7 games, but the card didnt win me anything). i think it is like a 2-3 card removal spelll that owns themed decks.

[spiller]

While I agree Banishment does hose theme decks badly, it is an ultra-rare that normally doesn't win games. There are SEVERAL other cards/combos that you will find much, much, much more abusive. See illusionist, frost sorceror, and etc..... or even Dust of invisibility. It usually isn't a single card that is an issue but how it interacts as a group.

[rpgdirector]

My biggest issue with the card is that it stops deck diversity. In a good environment, there should be MANY different deck archetypes that are all equally competitive. Because of Banishment, we can't have that. All decks MUST run lots of magical abilities to be able to deal with these kinds of cards. That makes using most of the characters worthless. Lord Zycon becomes the primo choice for all decks because he is the only one who starts out with all four kinds of magic.

I don't like the card because it forces the player base to all run similiar(not cookie cutter copies)decks.

[terendol]

I have to agree with this topic, I mean, I don't even recall anything in M:TG that MASS WIPES a freakin' creature type, lol. This seems like a card that got through the cracks for sure.

This is a card that, in organized play, I wouldn't even dream of running a Lord Sutraps (for example) for fear that one card could ruin my chances of advancing. I concur here that a card like this unbalances competitive play, but doesn't really affect casual play.

[Keith Katsikas]

How can you say that this card stops deck diversity when it only banishes cards of a certain type (human, dwarf, elf, goblin...) This card will do nothing less than create VERY diverse decks, where humans, dwarves, elves, and such all work together. It sounds to me like you think this card does more than it actually does. It will not banish wizards, warriors, rogues, or any other sub-type.

[Keith Katsikas]

I don't even recall anything in M:TG that MASS WIPES a freakin' creature type, lol.

Extinction

[terendol]

It sounds to me like you think this card does more than it actually does. It will not banish wizards, warriors, rogues, or any other sub-type.

Banishment sucks. You can get beat down within an inch of your life by, for example, dwarf and skele decks, then bust this card out and it's a whole new ball game. What rpgdirector is trying to say is that it puts any competitive environment that this game may create into the "cookie cutter decklists" type of environment - everyone has to run similar decks to avoid one card that could upset your whole match. Think Umezawa's Jitte, but kinda worse.

It's really OK, every card game has cards like this that seem too powerful...but other cards will come along that'll be worse than this. Tis the nature of the TCG.

If you can't see it, that's fine, but when an opponent takes your whole board, removes it under one card, and you have no way to defend yourself...it's either build a deck like his, or stop playing because you hate not being able to play what you want to play.

Oh and if you think Extinction is anywhere near as ruthless as Banishment, you're crazy If Extinction could MASS remove any future creature-type plays in addition to the destruction of current ones it would be one of the most sought after cards in Magic history!

[spiller]

I would not argue that Banishment is an extremely powerful card. If your casual play group seem to enjoy playing character theme decks, your group could decide to not allow it to be played in that format. The store that I play at has a HUGE list of magic cards we as a group have restricted for casual play to keep OUR style of play more enjoyable. It doesn't apply in tournaments but keeps our group games fun and balanced.
This card is NOT overpowered in competitive tournament decks. It is a sideboard card (at best) that penalizes. To use magic as an example there is Circle of Protection: Red. If you play a mono red burn deck and your opponent drops one of these, you will loose. The penalty of not playing a color with enchantment removal is high but it is a risk you take for reasons of theme, consistancy, speed, or even something as silly as loving red cards. It is an ultra-rare so you only have to deal with it once. It costs a significant amount of mana so it doesn't come out on turn one or two. There are cards that can deal with it (priest of riverwood, purify-to an extent).
If you want to play a dwarf deck but you know that Banishment will ruin your deck you have a few choices.
1. Add a few cards to your deck that will deal with Banishment. It is an ultra-rare so you don't need more than 3 or 4.
2. Play the deck as is. Take the risk and make the deck so that they HAVE to draw Banishment or you will win.
3. Ask for the card to be banned. I am all for restricting cards that cannot be dealt with by option 1 or 2.
Banishment is powerful. No arguing the point. Does it need to be banned, most likely not.

[rpgdirector]

Thank you for your suggestions on how to deal with the uber-powerful Banishment card. Unfortunately, these won't work for us.

1. There's only three cards that deal with Banishment(Forget It, Wizard Battle, Purify). All of these require magic abilities. In fact, two of them require all four of the magical types. This means I've got to run lots of magic using creatures. Dwarves don't have that many. Angels don't have that many. I've been tossing in Sacrificial Lamb to give me some more magic abilities, but it doesn't provide all of them that are needed.
2. Playing the deck as is works. But I almost always lose. You see Mystical Empire has lots of ways to draw cards. Slavemaster, Sneaky Snyder, Thoughtful Study, Bibliotek,...etc. Wizard decks (specifically Lord Zycon) can just fly through their decks and then shuffle their discard pile back into their deck again making it VERY easy to get to even ultra rare cards.
3. Banning a card? It's possible, but I prefer to go through other options first.

Here's my suggestions
1. Errata. I know, I know. Nobody likes errata because you have to be up to date on rulings in order to play. Nobody likes losing a game because they haven't been online in awhile to see the new wording. However, it sometimes must be done. Giving an upkeep cost on Banishment would be very helpful. Perhaps something similiar to Peace Time
2. A new card that can remove banishment. How about an uncommon mystical creature that comes into play unengaged and can sacrifice itself to remove target effect from the game.
3. TONS of new creature types so people will be less likely to have Banishment in their deck.

[Keith Katsikas]

I think you are forgeting about all the less obvious ways to stop an Effect with a speed as slow as Banishment, which is speed 1. You can Fully Engage the caster(s) with Illusionist(s) or with very cheap spells, such as Wizard's Web, Hexagenia Swarm, etc... If you Fully Engage one or more of the casters then the spell becomes discarded and has no effect. Plus in Reckoning there are some great new cards that deel with as well. Like Priest of Riverwood, who can destroy any Effect in play. Banishment is not so powerful in most cases.

[terendol]

Yeah it's kind of tough to cast a spell that requires all four schools of magic - even in Wizard decks, if you don't have Zycon's magic available, you are tapping down another unique, like Morgan Debaine to cast a counter - who can be tapped by something else as well. So this works both ways, in casting the Banish or countering it.

But if your strategy is to tap something down to prevent it from using its magic, it becomes a game of foresight and decihpering timing to stop a big spell, because obviously you will have to do it before you know what spell is being cast.

Oh well.

[Keith Katsikas]

"...obviously you will have to do it before you know what spell is being cast." How so? The Event in Mystical Empire works completely different from any other responce system from any other game. If you play Magic for instance you must completely rethink the entire process which you are use to. In Mystical Empire Speed is everything. When a spell or effect is cast it is done at the speed on the spell or effect, not at the speed of the caster(s), so to stop the casting of the spell or effect all one must do is react with something with a higher speed than the spell or effect they wish to stop. A counter type spell like Wizard's Battle or Forget It! may work, but so will cards like Illusionist, Wizard's Web, and so on. How these other cards work is... Lets say you are casting Banishment. You use two creatures to cast it. Banishment is being cast at the very slow speed of 1. I have a disengaged illusionist in play along with a few other normal wizards. I can, and will, use my illusionist to fully engage one of your casters at speed 7. This pulls that caster out of the event before it is able to cast Banishment. Now lets say that you anticipated I would use my illusionist in this way and you overpaid for Banishment using an extra creature with enough magical abilities to cast it. Now my removing one of the creatures from the event by fully engaging it with Illusionist will not stop Banishment from entering play. However, now that I have taken one of the casters out of the event, I can, and will, react by using two of my other disengaged wizards to cast a ritual spell called lightning bolt, which happens at speed 6. This will destroy the other two casters long before they have the chance to finish casting Banishment. Since no additional casters can be added to cast a spell or effect once an event has started, Banishment (now unable to be cast) is discarded. I really hope this explaination helps clear things up.

[kevmo]

Rpg I think you are forgetting the point of winning a game. I understand you want to build a deck with all dwarves or whatever but if they are not strong enough soley to win a game you must rethink your strategy. As in any other game in life. You are allowed to build a 10 card sideboard. So if someone puts in Banishment or you see it in the first game you can swap 10 cards to his one to beat banishment. Strategy is not only about doing what you want to do but also preparing for what others may play as well. I do agree that Dwarves are not powerful enough to win alone against banishment but in my opinion I dont believe they can win alone against most of the top decks. And there are quite a few different creature types out there. I do believe there are very powerful cards out there and I think the research team by ME is doing a good job helping to repair the game from some of these. But in this case I think with it being a UR and there being more than 5 different types of cards of dealing with it most of them C or UC it is fine as it is. I am sure in the future playing with one creature type will be feasible. I am also wondering why havnt you tried playing with some different cards to help your deck win. Like preist of riverwood for instance.

[Sum Dum Guy]

Priest of Riverwood gets rid of Banishment, many archers can kill the spell caster of banishment. Just to correct something here Banishment does NOT affect Sutrops, even a little. Banishment prevents you from HIRING characters of a certain type (say, undead). Sutrops' ability is not a hiring actin.