Sacrificial Lamb

[Keith Katsikas]

068
Sacrificial Lamb
Human
Rogue
0
1
1
1
Sacrificial Lamb enters Play Disengaged.
Sacrifice: Sacrificial Lamb produces Magical Abilities in the amount of... (4-4-0-6)
0
0
0
0
9
Rafal Hrynkiewicz
C

[plmrelm]

I'm guessing these are instant bonuses that disappear at the end of turn...but I want to know if that's correct...

[Keith Katsikas]

They actually disappear at the end of the event in which Sacrificial Lamb is Sacrificed.

[plmrelm]

okay, makes since then. use the sacrifice before it gets cold.

[JChadbourne]

OK, so how does trhis card work? You sac him to get the magic but then he is not realy there to cast anything? I thought that a sacrifice would be one event and then its gone. To cast a spell or effect it would have to be 2 events?

Q made mention that this creatures ability does not currently work with mechanics of the game. So what are we going to do with it? I have played it that it adds 4 4 0 6 to your next spell / effect, the spell or effect needs to be played directly after sacrificing it. I am sure thats how most people have been playing it since it is in the flying Sutrap, and it is one of the few creatures that are in that deck that can cast wings.

Lets get this straightened out...

[Keith Katsikas]

This is not true. How it works is you declair the intent to sacrifice the Lamb along with the intent of any other creature to help in paying the spell cost (if needed), then as the event resolves the actual payment is made. So in an event like this, the Lamb will sacrifice during the first stages of the resolution (because it has a speed of 9) at which point the magical abilities provided will be atributed to the casting of the spell or effect. True, in this game there is no such thing as "Floating Magic" like is some games, however, this works because within the resolution of an event things are (for the sake of gameplay) happening simultaneously. One would not be able to sack the Lamb and use that magic to cast something latter on that turn, however within the same event, it works.

[JChadbourne]

thanks for the quick responce Keith. its nice to have a producer of the game be on top of players questions and issues.

[Deleted]

My problem with this is that, at least to me, there is no language to concretely support how Sacrifical Lamb does or should work. The example and definition that Keith has given seems simple enough and perhaps ought to work that way. I'm just concerned for how things work when an Event is more complicated than this example, perhaps one of multiple items on the Event.

The rules for casting magic state that you attach a creature to a spell being cast, and that the payment is extracted at resolution of the spell. I'm not sure where you could activate Sac Lamb in between there. If you declare him as a caster, then the spell is going to do to it what it does to all creatures, and that is engage him for magic ability (which is 0 magic.)

If the case is that you can sac him whenever, then that means he's not attached to a spell or effect. And if that is the case, it is asking for the concept of "floating magic" to exist while it is not defined. Plus, many people could have a different interpretation of what they read into this. JC assumed that the magic would pump into the next played spell of effect, and I don't blame him.

Imagine this: You sac Sacrificial Lamb to cast Magical Wings. Your opponent responds with Wizard Battle on your Wings, to which you then respond with your own Wizard Battle targeting theirs. This is a weird situation where you are asking the game to allow Sacrificial Lamb to float magic PAST your spell that will resolve first, which is the Wizard Battle. (I, as a player, would argue that the magic should be pumped into Wizard Battle because the rules clearly provide for the overpayment of magic cards). Furthermore, if you intend to sac the Lamb to play the Wings, this breaks the rule of typical spellcasting since the sacrifice of Lamb is separate and independent of the spell (meaning I could sack it for kicks if I wanted to), and then that means I'm asking the game to interpret that I am not providing a caster for the Wings (since the Sac Lamb isn't a caster), which is something that is illegal in this game. Sac Lamb doesn't have the text to support this.

Frankly, I believe that for Sacrifical Lamb to work similarly to how it was designed, it needs errata. In fact, many Judges have also agreed and the topic still resides in Chambers. I do believe that the card as it is now creates rules issues or is mechanically flawed overall.

[JChadbourne]

Errata: May use an action to add 4 4 0 6 . If you do then sacrifice him at end of event. This action may only be used once.

[Nosferatu]

If it were to be errata-ed, I would say to word it more like the Zaubergoblins. Something like:

Once per turn, you may choose to have Sacrificial Lamb gain the Magical Abilities 4-4-0-6 without using an action. If you do, sacrifice Sacrificial Lamb at the end of the event.

The only real problem I see with this is a speed issue. You would also need text like that of Hidden, which treats itself as if it had that magic when you are announcing the casting of a Spell/Effect.

Unfortunately, I don't think it could be errata-ed into this:

Sacrificial Lamb
0 4
1 4
1 0
1 6
Human-OOOO-Rogue
Enters Play Disengaged.
Sacrifice Sacrificial Lamb at the end of an event in which he is used to cast a spell.


The problem with this is that it innately gives the Sacrificial Lamb some magic, making it subject to things like Lantern of Faith. It would be simpler though. Alas, it cannot be.

[Deleted]

You know, thinking it over fully...while I still see it as definitely a technical issue like some of you and most all my colleagues, I do see the other side of the coin, which is that we all know how this all intends to work. Practically speaking, Sac Lamb adds that much magic at the cost of his sacrifice, and he does so at speed 9. All we need to do is make it work without too much trouble.

It wouldn't be too much trouble I suppose to add a footnote to the magic/spellcasting part of the rulebook that said something like...

"In rare conditions, a card or ability might allow you to produce magic abilility without having to declare the casting of a spell of effect. In such cases, that magic ability should be treated as "reserved magic" that must be applied to the first spell or effect declared to cast within the event from which the reserved magic was produced. At the end of any event, any reserve magic is reduced to zero."

I figure this will deal with Sacrificial Lamb and any others that may be out there that we might not know about. From an R&D standpoint, NEG should not try to create such situations to happen in the future as I don't think we want to use this idea aggressively, but if and when it does happen, at least this way the "game" knows how to deal with the situation, which is all we really wanted in the first place. In this case, Sac Lamb should work just the way we all think it should. Plus, it would eliminate the need for errata.

Thoughts anyone?

[Nosferatu]

That seems like a viable solution. The only problem I can see is, say, you use 2 Sacrificial Lambs to cast a Lightning Bolt, then you can't destroy the lambs with an Archer or something to stop it. The spell isn't unstoppable, but it make Sacrificial Lamb even better. But I would much rather have it be your way, Q, then to add another errata.

[Deleted]

Keith might need to confirm this, but I'm pretty sure that by design those Sacrificial Lamb are supposed to be difficult to stop the ability to produce the magic being that they have a speed 9 that is only good for that ability. Like you said, the spell is still its own speed, but I don't think we have in actual play ever stopped Sac Lamb by destroying it in response since almost any response would inherently be slower.

Thanks for supporting the idea though. I think this would take care of it and will look to rally the powers that be to add it to the list of things to add to the rulebook.

[Nosferatu]

Hmmm. Rereading your wording, Q, I have to say that we both have differing ideas on 'the intent' of Sacrificial Lamb. I never thought of it is Sacrifice, then cast a Spell. I thought of it Declare intent to cast a Spell, then Sacrifice as part of the cost for playing the Spell. This would still use your "reserve magic" concept, but slightly differently. Instead of floating around the nothingness, waiting for a spell or effect to be played, it will actually be attached to a spell even before it is created. Something like "I have intent to cast Magical Wings with Sacrificial Lamb" even though Sacrificial Lamb has no magic innately. Any thoughts?

[Deleted]

My thoughts on that is that neither the current comprehensive rules nor the Sacrificial Lamb have the sophistication to carry out that order. The standard way to cast magic is as you suggest, declaring a spell and then its casters. Once you have done that, the spell will attempt to extract magic from Sac Lamb at reaction speed of the spell, but inbetween I see no reason why the casting of the spell would allow you to sacrifice the Lamb since that requires an action, which requires priority, which no one longer has at this point.

On top of that, the method you are suggesting makes Sac Lamb's speed 9 irrelavent since it would be sacked at reaction speed of the magic card. The fact of the matter is that I myself have been playing and ruling Sac Lamb in the way you think makes it "even better". That has been our status quo throughout the regionals and Gencon last year, and Keith has been with us all the way. This is why I am of the mind that this was the true intent of the card.