Whipmaster

[Keith Katsikas]

047
Whipmaster
Beast
Rogue
15
1
1
1
SLAVEMASTER
Slaves brought into play by Whipmaster lose all abilities, including Enter Play abilities, their subtype becomes builder, and they can only use actions to add a Hammer Token or Trowel Token to any non-maintained structure in play.
0
0
0
0
3
Santiago Iborra
UC

[cadrac]

admin said:

they can only use actions to add a Hammer Token or Trowel Token to any non-maintained structure in play.

I don't see anything on this card which gives them the Ability to add such Tokens, however. So if I am reading the card correctly, does this mean that unless some other card, such as a FOREMAN gives them that Ability, they can't take Actions at all?

[plmrelm]

the Slaves that Whipmaster brings in only use actions to add a Hammer Token or Trowel Token to any non-maintained structure in play.

[cadrac]

Yes, they only use Actions for that purpose, but nowhere on the card does it say it gives them the Ability to use an Action to add a Hammer or Trowel Token. It does make them Builders, but Builders do not automatically have the ability to add any sort of Token (e.g. the Builder Recruiter) so, as far as I can tell, as written, it would take a FOREMAN or other card that added Hammer or Trowel Token Ability to a Builder to give these Slaves the Ability to do anything with their Actions.

[Deleted]

I agree. Personally, I think this very card itself should be a Foreman...then it would all make sense. Go Cadrac. The man is consistent...

Who does this bogie go to for the next stage of change? Keith?

[Keith Katsikas]

ALL Builders with the ability to build state, "May use an action to yada, yada, yada." The only difference here is that these builders state, "May ONLY use an action to yada, yada, yada..."

[Deleted]

I think Cadrac's point is that you can't ONLY use actions for abilities that you don't yet have. IMO the argument is valid specifically b/c this card isn't consistently worded like other builders that have a build ability. I have always been a huge advocate that if similar cards have similar abilities, there should be consistency in language.

I think it's worth noting that the language has been easily misconstrued by several Judges, let alone more casual gamers. I think the lesson to be learned here is that this card should definitely have been worded in seperate clauses. One stating it's Build Ability. The other saying that that this Creature can only use actions to activate this ability. The wording has to be absolutely crystal clear, and I as a Judge completely understand where Cadrac is coming from.

[Keith Katsikas]

I understand as well. Do we need to errata this card?

[spiller]

Errata time. As worded, Cadrac is correct and these creatures do not have the ability to build.

[plmrelm]

I don't see the fuss on this card.

Whipmaster states that:
any creature it brings into play loses all abilities (that one is easy enough)
any creature it brings into play are considered builders (everyone agrees with this)
any creature brought into play by Whipmaster may only use actions to build.

Where's the problem here?

[Deleted]

It's like me using some effect on your Sneaky Snyder that says, "This creature may only use actions to cast spells and effects." Does that mean that Sneaky Snyder is bestowed Magical Ability?

[plmrelm]

No, that would mean literally that Sneaky "may only use actions to cast spells and effects," this would change Sneaky into a creature that may only cast cantrips and zero cost effects. Sneaky wouldn't gain any abilities. He wouldn't be able to attack or defend. The ONLY thing that he could do with his action(s) is cast spells and effects.

[redshirt]

It's been a while since I dusted off the ME rulebook, and I can't seem to find it in the present configuration of the website.

But I don't think that the rules have ever defined that being a builder in and of itself grants the ability to add hammer and/or trowel tokens. It's just been that all creatures that have had the ability to add hammer and/or trowel tokens till now have been builders.

Each of those builder cards specifically had a line of text saying that they could use an action to add one or both types of build tokens.

[plmrelm]

this works the same way "vampiric" does - the other card played grants the abilities. Your Wandering Unicorn doesn't have Vampiric until my card changed it.

[redshirt]

Unlike Vampiric, Builder is not an ability. Builder is a subtype.

I don't know if the subtype "builder" is defined in the rulebook as having the ability to add build tokens. But I doubt it. It's certainly not defined as having the ability to add either type of token.

If it isn't, there is a need to have something explicitly grant the ability to add hammer and/or trowel tokens.